Scary Times and Systemic Bias- Prayers and Protection

Today's Israel is equal parts holy land and hell; your worldview determines which side you view as which, though the reality is far more fluid than fixed.  The conflict is both foreign and familiar, distant and next door all at once.  The issues are simple, yet complex; death is the singularity that underscores the shouts from protestors and screams of suddenly orphaned children.

The headlines are terrifying; the images crush your soul. As of this recording, there is still no end in sight, and as people elevate their voices in solidarity behind one flag or another, blood continues to stain the ground where the prophets once preached. The confinement and the dehumanization are echoes of a past so horrible that we thought it would never be repeated.  All of the horrors are displayed before us on every news channel, and every social media outlet, and every day the growls of Anti-Semitic and Islamaphobia grow from whispers to screams.

In fact, Anti-Semitic and Islamaphobic incidents are on a sharp rise around the world, including the USA.

The same toxic behavior covered extensively on this podcast- from mobbing to microaggressions- is explosive when passions around this issue, marinated in one's own implicit or explicit bias, are brought to the surface in the workplace.  Employees in marginalized and under-represented populations are particularly vulnerable right now; employers must take care to ensure not only the inclusivity of these groups but also their safety.   

On this special podcast, your hosts are joined by employment attorney powerhouse Mahir Nisar and returning guest and co-author of the Workplace Psychological Safety Act, Deb Falzoi, for an honest discussion of how to navigate through this perilous time with safety, inclusivity, and most of all, dignity.

Due to the serious topic nature, a Spotify list will not accompany this episode.

Toxic Tearoom LinkedIn Page
Nisar Law Group
Workplace Psychological Safety Act- Learn more and make a difference!
Dignity Together- Screw the Hierarchy Podcast
Workplace Justice Podcast (site link; also streaming on various platforms)
Islamaphobia and Anti-Semitism On the Rise- Guardian
Healing Justice- World Trust Organization (downloadable conversation guide)

Transcript

0:01

The economic climate may be uncertain, but selecting the right employer and the right team is relevant and important. You could be swamped by hundreds of resumes from those other job boards, and you could add your resume to that pile as a job seeker. Or you could visit the team at hire my mom. Solid vetted companies are matched with the right talent, including atahome positions that are legit. No toxicity here. Grab your teacup, venture over to Hiremymom.com and get started on the right path to your success today. Use Toxic Tea Room at checkout to receive 15% off job listings or the popular hiring made easy course at, checkout. The Toxic Tea Room podcast is for entertainment purposes only. Neither the Toxic Tea Room nor its parent, that one, Booth Productions, LLC, is responsible for the statements or opinions of its guests, submissions, or content derived from publicly available sources. Content should not be interpreted as targeting specific companies, organizations, or individuals. The Toxic Tea Room podcast and that one, Booth Productions, LLC, are not responsible for any actions taken by individuals as a result of any content produced on this podcast. Listeners are encouraged to vet any recommendations with certified professional personnel. For more info on our disclaimer and to read our blog with fun Easter Eggs throughout, visit our website at ww toxictroom.com. I'm Roberta. And I'm, Stella. Welcome to the Toxic Tea Room. Stell, I'm so excited for today. Yes, me too. I am so humbled to have the guests that we have on today. Like, I'm not worthy. I think you're worthy. I'm not worthy. But I am so excited to have the guests that we have today. I'm so very thankful and honored to have both of them here. welcome back to the podcast, Deb Falzoy. Deb was our honored guest on the Mobbing episode in season one, our most popular episode to date. Deb believes all employees define themselves according to their own values and teaches their employers how to get results. By focusing on employees power, Deb has built a base of more than 10,000 workplace antibullying legislation supporters, including your hosts. She has helped hundreds of abused employees understand their abuse situation, discover their self worth, and learn how to move on from their toxic work cultures. She's been quoted in numerous media outlets, including Red Book, Forbes, Monster, and Truth Out. She hosts the Screw the Hierarchy podcast, which, by the way, Love that title. and co founded and Workplace Abuse, and co authored the Workplace Psychological Safety Act. Welcome, Deb. Yay, Deb's back. Thanks so much for having me. Happy to be here. You're always welcome here. Always welcome in the tea room. But we don't just have Deb, though. Deb on her own accord. Massively popular guest. We're honored to have her. But we've stacked the deck today, folks, because I have the honor of welcoming Myrnasar to the podcast. First, folks, you know him. He's on your LinkedIn feed. You see him on your TikTok for you page. He's all over the place. And why is he all over the place? Is he a social media superstar? Yes, but that's a side gig. See, Mr. Nisar is a esteemed employment discrimination attorney dedicated to advocacy for minority populations and people in protected categories. He's the principal of Nisar Law Group, a board certified coach, and host of the Workplace justice podcast Meyer. We are so honored to have you join us. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for that introduction, and I appreciate you. And thank you for having me on. Yeah. The only thing I'll say is, with respect to, what we're going to be discussing here today, anything that I say should not be construed as legal advice. obviously, take the tips as you feel will help you to advocate for yourself, but nothing is going to replace or substitute for having a conversation with an employment lawyer to understand your situation and be able to give you legal advice. So do not construe anything that we discuss as legal advice. Awesome. Thank you. Thank you. All right, I want to get right into it. we have the latest episodes of conflict in the Middle east playing out in front of us on news channels, on live streams, on Facebook, on TikTok. We're seeing the images everywhere, and they're horrific. I've cried. I've been up at night. I've had some rather spirited conversations with family members who see things from both views. And Stella knows if anyone has listened to our last episode. What side of the conflict am I on, Stella? The side that stops. The side that stops. Just make it stop. It's so horrible. Just stop. the images are horrific, and the images from the October 7 attack upon the music festival are horrific. Or were horrific. Forgive me. At the time of this recording, we don't appear to be close to a resolution. In fact, it's the opposite. It's escalating. M I believe there's a ground invasion in Gaza now. There is still a blockage of humanitarian aid. Protests have occurred around the world in huge numbers, and we're seeing random acts of violence take place even within America. Just last night, an elderly Jewish gentleman was killed by a blunt object while carrying the Israeli flag during a pro Palestinian protest. And who can forget? Oh, this one breaks my heart. Who can forget Wadiya al Foyum, the innocent six year old boy stabbed to death by his landlord, who was allegedly screaming, all Muslims must die, as he did so? And I'll just say, as a human being, that one hit me the hardest, because that occurred in Plainfield, Illinois, which is where I raised my children. I know exactly where the house is that the family rented. I know that town. It's not a big town. I mean, it's not Chicagoland. It is about 45 miles outside the city. I bordered cornfields, for God's sakes. And to think of a, grown man stabbing a six year old child and looking at him as he did that for dozens of times breaks my heart into. I can't even explain. And today's workplace is toxic enough as it is. And while we fight the good fight to bring much needed change, we're not there just yet. The narrative of good and evil from both sides serves to elevate prejudice and discrimination behaviors in daily life, and that includes our work environments. So, Meyer, I'd like to start with you. How can employees in vulnerable populations protect themselves in this environment? And what can employers do to create a safe environment for those employees? Yeah. Thank you so much, Roberta. So, basically, what I would say is this. I mean, this is obviously a very difficult environment to be in within the United States. And there has been so much heartbreak associated with everything that's going on. And I echo your sentiments that this needs to stop. that being said, I think within the workplace, for those individuals that feel as if, as a result of their race, religion, their national origin, that they feel as if they're being denied an equal opportunity within that environment, that they notice that there are certain preferential treatment, that they notice that there are certain clicks that are being nurtured and that they're being othered. And they start to notice that their ability to progress, to have a fair shot within that work environment, is starting to get minimized, or almost as if it doesn't even exist anymore. M potentially even leading up to a termination. It's at that point that they need to take things a bit more proactive. They need to be proactive about how they really advocate for themselves and their rights. They have a legal right to be there. They have a legal right to be given a fair and equal opportunity within that environment. And the only one that's going to speak up for that right is themselves. And so the way that I advocate for a lot of my videos on social media talks about the tips that I give out in ways that you can develop a paper trail, because everything comes down to evidence. And so when you are going to reach out to your employer about how you feel like you're being mistreated, you have to go through the complaint protocols that that employer has set forth within their handbooks. And oftentimes that means you got to reach out to, ah, HR. And the way that you reach out to HR makes a huge difference. And the way that I advocate for and how I see it play out within the legal system is that you need to do things through a paper trail. Send it via email, specify specifically the type of protected category that you fall in for which you believe that you're being mistreated for. So if it's on the basis of your national origin, say it. If it happens to be on the basis of your religion, say it. And make sure it's within that email and you send them that complaint, explain your experience and retain a copy of it. It's at that point you should reach out to an employment attorney to be able to understand how is the employer reacting, how are they dealing with it. And if you experience retaliation thereafter, which is illegal, you should continue to follow up with a paper trail and reach out to an employment lawyer to then discuss what options exist for you. Because nobody should be in a work environment being denied a fair opportunity, and then when they call it out, start to experience things getting worse. And so the other aspect is, what can employers do, right? What kind of conversation can the employer have? And I've seen this across our country, sadly, that a lot of times when we take a certain stance as a company and we do not demonstrate all voices, we do not really commit to diversity, equity and inclusion, those commitments that so many companies have marketed to say, your voice matters, you are seen, you are heard. But when we do not follow up and demonstrate that people that are being hurt, people that are feeling marginalized, people that are feeling as if they are not valued as much as others by not talking about their experience and not understanding their experience and shutting down their perspective, is not catering to inclusion. And so if they're putting out statements, I think employers need to be careful and be empathetic and compassionate to what type of environment that they're nurturing. It doesn't make any sense to isolate people because of politics or because you have certain stances, especially within a work environment context, because you are legally required to cater to an environment where every person, regardless of their race or national origin or their religion, have an equal opportunity. Wow, that was great. That was really good. Deb, I want to pivot to you. Your work has highlighted mobbing as a particularly destructive behavior. Does the current climate increase the probability of mobbing? It's hard to say if it increases it. I would say that hearing these things helps us justify implicit bias that can be involved, with toxic behavior that can escalate to mobbing as it is in the workplace. We have these cultures where some people benefit from positive stereotypes and some people benefit from negative stereotypes, and power is typically associated with those positive stereotypes. So, hearing these types of stories in the news reinforces that it's normal to, either benefit from your privilege or reinforce, do things to maintain your privilege or to other people, to keep the status quo. So, I'm not sure if there's data out on, how these news stories are affecting our workplaces, but it certainly can't help in terms of making people, more likely to be combative with their personal opinions and then, use that as a weapon to other people. Yeah, I would agree with you, Deb. As you know, I was a victim of mobbing myself, and the pieces that I think easiest to do are simply exclude people. Exclude them from meetings they would normally be in. Don't say a word. Just leave them. Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot to add you those little things that can be done. That, again, it's your personal prejudice or your personal emotions, or you're transferring what you see on the news and the particular view from literally one station or the other and transferring onto a human being in your workplace. A professional colleague, I can absolutely see to your point where if it already exists, it can be an accelerant. And if people already have, they feel a certain way and they don't vocalize it, but they still feel that way. They can be Jolly rancher joiners when it comes to some of the mobbing activity going on, because they feel that they're doing this for the common good. And it's only in their heads that it's the common good, because, again, there's two sides of this, and it's a very polarizing issue, and it's horrific. But I think you're, at the end of the day, and I'll just go into it. I mean, Vox recently quoted Frank Pizella, an associate professor of criminal justice at John J. College and author of the book Hate Crime Statutes, Public Policy, and law enforcement dilemma. On the topic. Quote, I won't be surprised if there's a spike in anti Semitic and Islamophobic incidents during this period. When these kind of world events take place, whether here or abroad, people feel strongly about them. And when people have strong beliefs, they act out. They look at people in their neighborhoods and blame them for what's happening in the Middle east, or they blame all Asian people for what started in Wuhan, China, when we had the pandemic. It's the same behavior. This is referred to as the scapegoat theory, which is kind of terrifying to think about in the context of the workplace, particularly when, again, for me, it's personal. I was a victim of mobbing, and to be made the scapegoat for all things that go wrong. And even though you didn't even have involvement in them. This is particularly terrifying to think that you could make someone a scapegoat justifiably because of what's happening thousands of miles away in a totally different part of the world. But that that's transferring here. Are there any thoughts on kind of that concept of the scapegoat? And do you see, either of you, do you see the opportunity for that to increase during this time? And how do people know that that's what's happening to them? Because, as you guys know, because you've both testified to this. This was in my testimony that I submitted as well. At first, you don't want to believe it's happening to you, and you look for rational explanations, and then when you start to feel that, no, this isn't normal, and you talk about it with your manager or with a trusted peer, and when you get the eye rolls or the shrugs, you realize, okay, I, don't have an ally there. How does that work in this environment where you could be ostracized or made the scapegoat for something you personally have nothing to do with, but it's simply who you are, whether you're Jewish or whether you are Muslim or whether you're mistaken for one or the other, or whether it's an opportunity to just target you because you're a minority or because you're a female. Whatever the situation may be, to me, this is a particularly challenging time for people. And how do people know and take those little signs and say, yeah, you need to pay attention because you're not crazy. This isn't in your head. There's something that could be serious going on. What can we give as advice to people? I can say that I think people should trust their gut. And if they're experiencing exclusion, or even what they perceive as exclusion, starting to document things can be helpful, for the paper trail that Meyer was talking about, but also to validate themselves if they're experiencing gaslighting. Especially, we can question ourselves a lot. We can internalize these put downs that we're receiving or these messages that we're less than. So looking at the documentation can help us or can remind us that there is actually a pattern here, because a lot of the scapegoating that happens, it may be very obvious, but it could also be subtle, and it could also be behind closed doors. And we never see it, because the false narrative is being, constructed behind our backs, purposely. So. I think documentation, would be my first piece of advice for, if no other reason, to teach ourselves that, look, we are not the problem here, but also for our own paper trail. I like, and Meyer, I know you are always harping on document, document, document, and you're right. But I do think in this case, it's particularly powerful because there's something about writing down when something happens and reviewing it and realizing, no, there's a pattern here. This isn't me taking something the wrong way. This isn't me being sensitive. There's a pattern here, and I can see it. It's in front of me. Mayer, do you have any additional insight there for those that might be falling into that scapegoat category? I absolutely do. I think that these are common patterns that you see within oppressive institutions, conversations that are essentially being like. There's control with respect to narratives. There is a concept of gaslighting, so that your narrative fades out. You start to question yourself about your own experiences, your thoughts, and it starts to impact you. I always advocate that when somebody is going through these events, that they should obviously seek mental health treatment because it is so harmful. And I think that it's something that necessitates you to be in the position to be able to clearly see what is happening. Because in these type of environments where there is silencing, where people are being told that their perspective doesn't matter, where they are being othered, when communication dies down, as you mentioned, where we're not interested in what you have to say, you're going to listen to our version of the facts, and we're going to put that as the overall narrative of actually what happened. When you based upon that power dynamic of being somebody that's attached to not only that position, your reputation, your income, your responsibilities, your family, every aspect is so tied in. So it's so hard to be in a position to speak up. And so when we talk about paper trails and we talk about maintaining evidence and recording where legally permissible, taking pictures where it's appropriate, picking videos where it's not illegal to do so, why do we do this? Because the reality is this, that where we're able to protect our narrative in the face of those that do not want our narrative to be seen and heard and valued, you got to do it. You got no choice. Because how are you going to hold anyone accountable or get justice when that very institution, in that very environment, is not focused on the truth and accountability and justice with transparency? Those foundations are missing. And so when we cater to environments, when we cater to a place where people feel a sense of belonging, they need to feel heard, seen. And there needs to be principles that everybody acknowledges trumps everything, and that is that we value all human life. We celebrate people for who they are. We respect people's opinions and perspectives, as long as it's not harmful to other people's existence. These common principles are things that, to be honest with you, all our religions and all of these faith based moral practices, our legal system based upon them, talk about. But a lot of times, that's right, they get perverted by people's inability to seemingly differentiate between other objectives. Sometimes those objectives can be, we want to make money. We want to have short term profits above all else. And the only way that we know is to exploit and abuse people in order to obtain that. And when we want certain things to be a, certain system of supremacy, where we have all the benefits of the privilege, while we want others to be below us and not be seen in that environment that perpetuates. So, accountability and transparency and the truth is really at the hallmark of what all of this is all about, whether it's psychological safety, whether it's about equal opportunity, people need to feel valued and respected for who they are. I know you can't see me giving you a standing ovation in my head, but that's exactly what I was doing. And as you were talking, I recalled you and I had an early conversation, I think it was February or early March. Mayer and I talked about the mobbing, which what happened to me, I didn't even realize had a name to it until we were researching for this podcast. And it was in our early days, and I found Deb that way. And I said, oh, my God, it's as if she lived my life. I know exactly this. And I shared that with you, and you said, of course it looks familiar, because there's actually a system. That is what the system does. And that one statement from you, you have no idea. I internalized that and said, you know what? It's not me. There is a system, and it's not about me. That's why it's so familiar, because it's happened to so many people. And that one sentence from you gave me so much peace. You have no idea. No idea. That's why you do what you do. That's why you're the superstar. That's why you do what you do. That's why everybody should subscribe to your TikTok channel. Everybody should follow you on Linkedin. Everyone should listen to you. It's why you do what you do. Thank you. And I say this because it's so challenging, because you see these patterns. And these patterns are not limited to the United States. They're not limited to a specific state. They're not limited to Europe or Asia. it's everywhere. It's everywhere because these systems that are based upon this concept of take and don't give, give, give is harming people. And when we prioritize profits over people and the mechanisms to do that without really taking into account the human experience and just almost not even respecting the human experience, and it's harmful, and that's what we're seeing in today's society is the harm that's being perpetuated by greed. Oh, my gosh. All right, so before we move on to our next topic, I want to remind our audience of the power of passionate performance. Passion is the accelerant to the achievement of a goal, such as workplace Psychological Safety Act. Just saying. Resolution, to a problem and the catapult to success. Without passion, you have meh M. And no one makes history with me. So when you're ready to unleash uncommon results, contact Escatena. Escatena provides supply chain management and sustainability consulting services that eliminate waste, escalate production, and encourage positive work environments. Escatena believes that unique results come from unique talent, and this company is uniquely positioned to work for you. Visit Escategenna. Net to learn more about what Escategenna can do for you. Ready to engage? Contact Escategenna at unleash@escategenna.net for a free consultation. That's Escat. And Deb, we're going to switch to something you're a little passionate about. You're the co author of the Workplace Psychological Safety Act. I viewed both you and Meyer's testimony to the Massachusetts. I can't talk today. Massachusetts legislators recently and the various video testimonies are touching and so familiar. I submitted written testimony in favor of the act as well. As you know, where do we stand on progressing the act to become law in Massachusetts and beyond? so we are actually being tasked with, making some edits to it, Myers helping us with that. We have a couple of employment lawyers looking at it, hopefully to make it a little bit more passable. But we have in Massachusetts a deadline of early February where every committee has to say yes or no to every bill that has gone through them, and that's all committees. so we have a couple of months to just keep pushing. within that, we'll have modified language, but we also have a bill that passed the Rhode Island State Senate. We'll swap out the language there, and, we'll get ready for that session, too. Massachusetts is on a two year session. They're on a one year session. but since it's passed the state Senate there, we really hope to get that through the House, too. and then we're hoping to introduce the bill in numerous other states. We're going to start some trainings in 2024, and just see what other states we can get on board with this so we can really build this national movement we're aiming to. Should there be? I mean, I know a lot of people probably wish they could have been a part of that and maybe weren't as aware. we've been doing a good job. We collectively. Right. everyone that is tied in any way, remotely to the passage of this act are promoting this on social media and having conversations with friends and putting resources out there. So I do believe there are probably a number of people that wish they would have had the opportunity to at least submit even written testimony. Is there still a value in them doing that? I think there is. I think that the more we can show we have this groundswell that's saying that we want change, the better, and that will give us more of a base to get more of the word spreading. And, I think any voice in this can help. So if people do want to still submit, their testimony, it doesn't have to be personal, but personal stories can be powerful, or it can just be general information. They can go to wpsact.org, and right at the top of the homepage there, is a link to be able to submit information to the Joint Committee on Labor and Workforce Development that is sitting with the bill. there's a template letter in there. They can send that in like, 20 seconds, or they can, write their own and say what they want to say and help take their voice back. But every voice counts in this. Every voice helps. So, absolutely, people can still participate, and. We can put those links in the show notes as well. And so, listeners, we will have that. Meyer, you mentioned this is Global. You're right. I mean, what interests us the most on our Little podcast is how broad our listenerships are. We've got this, and I'm going to give them a shout out because it's spiked lately, and I'm not sure why, but we've got this contingency in Ottawa, Canada, of all places, so. Hi, Ottawa. It's nice to see you guys. And it's been growing there. So whatever this contingency is in Ottawa, what's up? Nice to see you. Give us a shout out. Drop us a line. We love that you're there. but we have listeners as far out as the Philippines and in Colombia, and in mean, we are literally have listeners around the world, which is so exciting for us, but also very sad, because, honestly, there's one goal that Stella and I have with this podcast, and that it would no longer exist because there's no need for it. Because toxic workplaces don't exist. Because the topic becomes it's. We have a saying that we take the issues very seriously. We don't take ourselves seriously. So we do get silly sometimes, because if we don't laugh, we cry. If we're not talking, we'd be screaming. And Stella and I are yin and know if there's a fight or flight response. SteLla knows what my response is. I'm going to fight. I'm not looking to get physical, but I will stand my ground. I'm not going to be a doormat. I'm not going to just get walked. You know, this podcast gives us an opportunity to tell everyone that they can be their own leader, and they can be their own fighter, and they can be their own advocate, and they're not alone in the experience that happened to them, but that there are thousands worldwide going through the same exact thing. And when you're alone dealing with it, when you don't even know who you can trust anymore, it's so important to know. Just that it's so important to know that you are not the only person that this has happened to. And you have, at least, if nothing else, a couple of Crazy girls on this podcast to listen to. If you need to. And sometimes you're going to even give them stupid stories because they're funny and hopefully get them. People get educated when they're entertained, though. So we do try. Meyer, do you have any? Go ahead, Stell. Well, if I could, I wanted to say two quick things. One is for the Flight people. When she said fight or flight for the flight people, I want to encourage you that you do have a voice at some point in your life, and I think that's what we're all getting to here is at some point in your life, instead of shying away from the confrontation, you should find a voice or listen, to and subscribe to, Meyer or Deb's, platforms or our platform to find your voice there, because we hope that in speaking about these things, we are empowering you to say, hey, I've always just kind of taken it and now it's not time to take it anymore, because other people are encouraged when someone else stands up. So if you see someone in your teams at work that they just shy away and don't say anything, it's important to speak up for them, encourage them, empower them to speak up for themselves. Stella, I was going to joke with you that, I had twisted sister pop up in my head. We're not going to take it anymore. But this has been a very serious episode for good reason. So I wasn't going to break out in a song, as I have been known to do on prior episodes. I'm going to exercise self discipline and not do that today. Great. Stop begging. I'm not going to do it. Deb, stop asking. I'm not going to do it. It's not today. Maybe tomorrow. Not today. I do want to commend both of you, Deb and Meyer, for the work that you do on behalf of those who cannot use their voice. And I'm grateful for the path that you're forging, Deb, and using what happened to you in such a positive way that's going to impact so many people. I'm really grateful for you for standing up and being that advocate for us, and I'm beyond honored to play a small role in your journey with you by having you here and by volunteering for you and doing what I can to help support. Meyer, you are so incredible on your short videos. What you deliver in knowledge in little tiny bites are so powerful, and I hope people take that to heart and listen to your advice and the work that you're doing to the underrepresented and the underserved is just incredible. And I thank you both so much for the work that you're doing. You're both incredible human beings. I'm honored to have you here. I'm honored to be able to participate in this journey for everyone with the two of you. is there anything more our listeners can do to support the cause? I think going back to the website, there's a take action page. There are a bunch of things they can do to spread the word. if they don't feel comfortable sharing their story, because there can be some risk involved with that, they can share graphics or download a flyer and post that in a city near them. or just join us and find out what we're doing. We have a bunch of rules that we're trying to fill, also volunteer rules to really amp up the marketing and to really create a movement around this. So, yeah, it's just lending your voice in any way, big or small, to really amplify what we're doing. Meyer, I'd ask from your side, one thing that we didn't touch upon, but I don't want to leave unsaid. If you are a bystander and you see these things happening to someone that is being marginalized in the office, that's almost an impossible position for some people. Not for me, because I'll speak up. I mean, like I said, my tendency is to fight. But some, people don't feel comfortable. They don't want to get dragged into being a target of the mob. They don't want to be seen as siding with the issue versus trying to protect the person. What advice can you give people that see the wrongdoing happening in real time? they have to do something. Yeah, it's a really good question because a lot of these environments are meant to silence everyone. Either you accept, you comply, and you become subservient. That is what they want. Whatever experience you may be having, that's what their objective is, is that if you don't like it, leave. But if you want to stay here, then you have to deal with it. And a lot of times, our environments nurture such an environment of fear regarding speaking up and raising our voices for ourselves. The idea of speaking up for someone else does not even occur to most people. Right. and I think just to kind of capture that whole concept, that style was talking about the fear associated with confrontation. I think the way that one can really overcome this fear, especially when you're experiencing uncomfortable environments, is by learning how to speak up and what to say, right, and use the different tips that are available from people that have actually gone through this process before and how they have dealt with it and how they have had success. And so a lot of the content that I put on in my social media is about specifically this major issue, which is, how do I communicate what I'm going through in a way where the employer feels compelled to address it? And I'm also safe in a way where the risk to me getting retaliated against is as minimized as possible. Is there a possibility that we can, have people speak up in that legally protected way and not face something stupid by an employer? We can't, because that's just what employers do. They will do whatever they want. But how can we minimize the risk? How can we minimize it? How can we compel an employer to do the right thing and make them accountable to what the rules are? What are the laws? And so understanding your legal rights, understanding what are the mechanisms that are able to hold institutions accountable and then putting that into action, taking that first leap through those paper trail, through those evidence building initiatives of trying to protect your narrative of what you're going through is by far the most empowering experience that I have seen people have is that when they find that they can speak up in a way that's protected, you give them the ability to fight for themselves everywhere. And so if we're able to inform people about how to do it, we change the ballgame. Employers are no longer on top. There's a level playing field, and employees are informed of how to advocate for themselves. So that's what I would encourage people to do, is that look at different content that educates you on how to speak up. And don't be fearful of being able to speak up for yourself, because the truth is, nobody else will. And if you're talking about a bystander, somebody that may be witnessing it, first of all, there are laws that protect you, but it's the same mechanism. How do you speak up on, behalf of someone else? Because you're also going to be potentially subjected to retaliation. So you got to go through the same steps. Like, are you speaking up about somebody being marginalized based upon their race, that you're witnessing something that is harming someone and speaking out about it? You got to know, okay, this is my legal rights. This is what I'm seeing that's illegal. And do the same paper trail, and in most cases, you will be protected against retaliation. Will you always be protected? Will they retaliate? Unfortunately, a lot of employers do retaliate because they take knee jerk reactions, because their power is questioned. It's a power game. You are questioning their authority. You're questioning their dominion over you because you do have the right, you do have their legal right to question that authority and hold them accountable to the law that is meant for you. So that's why it's so important to pass laws such as the Workplace Psychological Safety act, so that people can have the tools to hold these employers accountable for the experiences that people have to go through. So that's where I'll leave it. I love all of that. Look, guys, if you aren't comfortable being an advocate, be an ally. Even if you take someone out to lunch who you see that happening with, you don't know what that one act of kindness means to that person, going through it, to just give them an ear. If you don't feel comfortable being an advocate or an ally, you can't be my friend. So that's just that. I'm sorry, but I'll take that stance. Look, I get it. People are complicated, but I'm a human being, and I can't watch wrongdoing occur in front of me and just say, it sucks to be you. That's just not who I am. But anyway, I do appreciate your comments there, Meyer. I really do. And I really hope our listeners understand, particularly when we go back to our earlier topic. This is about protecting those who are coming to work to trade their time, their experience, and their skill set for a paycheck. This is not a place to vet international conflict. This is not a place to project your own personal feelings onto another human being. It's certainly not a place to marginalize anybody. And what I've told folks is, when you choose to be silent in these situations, whether it's as a victim or seeing things happen, what you don't know is that eventually, you are the target, too. It's just a matter of time, because it is a power centric game. And if it's not you today, it'll be you tomorrow. And at some point, you just have to stand up and make it stop or get yourself into a better environment where this doesn't exist. guys, I can't even begin to tell you how grateful I am again to have you both on. It's a critically important topic, and it's a very timely topic. Oh, may there be peace and justice soon. Everywhere at the workplace, around the world. have you been or are you now a victim of mobbing or discrimination? You're not alone. We want to hear from you, send your stories to the teabag@toxictroom.com. And as part of our month of gratitude, we thank our guests, current, former and future, for delivering such critical insight to our listeners. We appreciate all of you. We will continue to bring powerful content this month, so please subscribe and follow us on LinkedIn, X and TikTok. You can also support us by supporting our various affiliates. Look on our blog for additional information. Send us your stories by the way, December is going to be interesting. send us your stories of workplace holiday parties gone horribly, horribly wrong for a special episode next month. Stella, I know, you probably have some input here. I'm going to go ahead and close this out on your behalf because I see you getting emotionally for Clempt, if you'll allow me on this episode, and I want to protect you there. So as your partner and friend, I'm going to go ahead and close this out. So save your voice. As we close this episode, please remember, everybody, everyone is fighting a battle you know nothing about. Kindness seems to be the rarest commodity these days, so let's change that. Until next time, be safe. Love all of you. Love you guys. Bye.