For the Love of All That's Holy! When Religious Views Can Impact You...

...and you aren't even part of that religion necessarily!
Grab a seat and pour a hot cup of tea- we are tackling a "taboo" subject-religion- but from a specific point of view.  We will explore just a few ways in which deeply held personal religious beliefs from one or more individuals can serve to alienate, exclude, or even harm others in surprising ways.
Be it a religious display in schools and government buildings to which company holidays are provided, the conversation around religion's place in our lives has moved from personal to public policy.  It is time to acknowledge what occurs on a regular, daily basis from this unique point of view.
Religion is personal. Faith is a choice. However, certain beliefs may prevent women from promotion, access to information, and even exclusion from advancement.  Religions should not serve in an obscene game of rock-paper-scissors to determine which one wins in policy over people.
Should we hold a follow-up episode with guests to speak on this topic at a deeper level? Let us know!
Resources:
Religion, Spirituality and the Workplace- A Critique (Annual Reviews)
Religious Objections to Diversity Policies Spur New Legal Issues (Bloomberg Law)
Levels and Types of Oppression At Work (Schadavis) Note: This reference is from 2014; however, it is shocking how little has changed.  AI has evolved more than we have in the past decade. Maybe we should just let the robots win. 
Use of Religious Beliefs to Justify Rights Violations Must Be Outlawed (United Nations)
Fun Stuff:
Feeling dirty after dealing with toxic environments? Clean up toxic-free with Earth Breeze Laundry Sheets!
Relax in the comfort of your own home with perfectly legal (in most states!) Canna River cannabis products! Pain relief, sleep aids, or conversation sparklers- get the Canna River product delivered straight to your home!
In a funk? Need the right employer, not just the right job? Want to keep working from home? All of these things are possible with Hire My Mom! Use TOXICTEAROOM code at checkout for 15% off job listings! 

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Transcript

>> Stella: 0:01

The toxic tearoom podcast is for entertainment purposes only. Some of our episodes are intentionally serious in nature. Others are pure silliness. We aim to deliver valuable information, insight, and camaraderie with a heaping dose of humor. In any case, some episodes may trigger anger or sadness. We hope. Some make you laugh or feel vindicated that you are not crazy or alone. Other episodes, such as the one you are listening to today, have been in the works for some time. We recognize that some issues cause division in our audience, and we are not trying to intentionally provoke. We do, however, recognize that this topic is manifesting itself in public discourse on a regular basis. So we feel that the timing for this episode is right. All that said, this podcast and our parent, that one booth productions, are not responsible for any actions taken as a result of this podcast, nor the opinions expressed by the hosts on this topic in particular. Neither the hosts, the toxic Tea room podcast, or that one, booth productions, is publicly supporting or contradicting any, particularly religion, practice, faith, or lack thereof. Faith is a personal choice and relationship. With all that said, in the hopes of. Blessings to come. Hi, I'm Roberta.

>> Roberta: 1:21

And I'm, Stella. watching out for thunderbolts. Welcome to the toxic tea room.

>> Stella: 1:39

Stella, you said, watch out for thunderbolts, which is weird because, like, the weather patterns are crazy.

>> Roberta: 1:46

I mean, seriously, like, up north from where I live, they were evacuating people that were close to a dam.

>> Stella: 1:55

What?

>> Roberta: 1:55

Last night.

>> Stella: 1:56

What?

>> Roberta: 1:57

Because of so much rainfall, like, in such a short amount of time. I'm like, wow. What? How does that happen?

>> Stella: 2:04

Wow. I, I. And they said it's gonna be a very busy hurricane season, because. Of course it is. Because why not?

>> Roberta: 2:13

Of course.

>> Stella: 2:14

Because why not? My God. Yeah, I don't know. This is going to be an interesting topic. I could tell by our opening banter that we're both kind of, like, we want to talk about it, but we're scared.

>> Roberta: 2:32

Well, this is the second try at this particular episode, so that is a fact. So there was great content in our last attempt, so our audience is clear. But there was also a lot of controversial content. And we're not trying to be controversial. We're trying to talk about issues that are toxic or can be toxic and kind of offer navigation through it.

>> Stella: 3:06

Not that controversy is an issue for us. It's almost on, brand in some sense, right? We don't have an issue with controversy or view it as an obstacle in general, having covered every aspect of defecation and toxic work environments, literal and figural. Controversy is not something we shy away from.

>> Roberta: 3:32

Oh my goodness. Why is it always poop? Let's take care of some business before we jump in. So one, visit our blog@toxicteroom.com blog for episodes, fun stuff, and links to wonderful products and services. Number two, we have a get Teabag 2024 mega event planned for October. Get those workplace horror stories in for consideration and inclusion.

>> Stella: 4:02

Let's try for some poop free ones. I'm just asking for a friend.

>> Roberta: 4:05

No poop. And three, our next episode has a game we will play together. So make sure you like and follow us on whatever platform you're listening to us on. Also, we have, we are having a special episode on ingesting toxicity with a special announcement from Roberta at the end of that episode.

>> Stella: 4:29

And it's not an announcement about my book, just to be clear, but I will take this opportunity to announce that I am going to offer 550 listeners the opportunity to download my book for free in exchange for an honest review. So to get on, that list and be one of the literal first to have access to download my new book, emerge for free once the editors are done killing me with rewrites, then send me an email to, with the header, by the way, put in the headlines just so we can find it easier. Engage. Engage. To engage with us on the book, at the teabagoxicteroom.com dot, put in your request for the download, with your email and contact information, and I'll add you to the list. That sounds so cool. I'm excited. Terrified also, but excited. Okay, now for the topic at hand that we have been, those of you that are listening to us, like God, what is with these two today? So we're just going to get into it. That's just the best thing to do. the topic today is, for the love of all that's holy, today we are discussing the potential toxic impacts from m religious views. I was raised to never discuss politics or religion, so I got half of that right, at least today.

>> Roberta: 5:54

Same, same, same. But obviously, in all seriousness, religion is a sensitive topic. But that is because the belief system is so strongly held. Sometimes that belief system can affect more than the individual that holds those beliefs. We are not talking about making, accommodations for religious beliefs, such as not working on a particular day of the week or praying at a particular time of day or even refusing to participate in birthday celebrations because of a belief.

>> Stella: 6:31

Correct. We feel it's important for everyone to respect each other's beliefs and make whatever reasonable accommodation is available.

>> Roberta: 6:40

So what if your belief is that women should not hold power.

>> Stella: 6:45

See, now you're getting to the crux of this episode.

>> Roberta: 6:49

Yes.

>> Stella: 6:50

We must recognize that there are certain belief systems in which those beliefs are at odds with modern society. Using this example, how does a woman advance when her supervisor may feel that by promoting her to a managerial role that conflicts with their deeply held beliefs, that person likely won't be brazen enough to outright say, well, no woman. It will be an authority over a man.

>> Roberta: 7:17

Right, right. But if that person would document and contact someone like Mahir Nassar.

>> Stella: 7:24

Mahir Nassar would love that. Look, that just. We will. We will link to his site in the show notes. If someone's brazen enough to tell you that, it is, and it's good advice, document those things. But let's think about the various ways, and there are so many beyond the ones we're going to cover on this podcast in which religion can bring undesirable toxicity. So we've got eight topics that we're going to just use as examples. Again, this could be a week long seminar on these things everywhere. but we focused on just eight. Just eight. And Stella and I are going to alternate these. So I'm going to do the first one, Stella's going to the second one. We're going to talk about each one. And some of these will be more obvious than others. And some of them, you may not even think of those as being an impact unless you look at it a certain way. So let's do what we do and get into it. So, the first is that example we use, which I'm going to label exclusion. So excluding someone because of your particular religious beliefs, or if you are the person being excluded because of others beliefs that you may or may not even be aware of. so if you have a manager and that manager compliment your work, but you can't seem to advance, and it may be because that person has a religious belief that women should not be an authority over a mandeh. And so that person is making a decision of promoting you as a woman and potentially violating their deeply held beliefs. Now, I'm not saying that everybody that doesn't promote you is not promoting you because of that, but this is to bring awareness. That's not just. That's just one example, excluding from certain meetings or opportunities. Community. there's a number of ways, and I would argue this is probably the most common way, because if you aren't eager to engage with somebody else due to religious beliefs, like, let's say if your religious belief completely, you know, is in contradiction to anything in the LGBTQ community. You're not necessarily going to involve a member of that community the same way that you might someone that's not because of your particular religious beliefs. So exclusion is the first example.

>> Roberta: 9:54

Yeah, it's a good one. and I just wanted to point out how much. If you really took a deep look at yourself, how much exclusion are you doing without even realizing it? Like, there's one thing that you don't recognize it in yourself. Like, you don't know why you don't like this person or you don't think this person has the chops to do this role, but it's so important to kind of take self inventory and really define the belief system that you have. So. Just wanted to call that out. yeah. So, number two is mingling of public spaces and religious mandates, like having the Ten Commandments in school or. Yeah. And. Or things of that nature where you are mixing, the religious things or attributes with the workplace or with, you know, a professional setting.

>> Stella: 11:01

Now, this is particularly timely because, Louisiana passed a law that mandates the Ten Commandments be displayed in every classroom. On the surface, this could seem benign. I mean, it's the Ten Commandments. What could be wrong?

>> Roberta: 11:16

Yeah. It's not that the Ten Commandments are wrong.

>> Stella: 11:18

That's not the issue. Right. But let's say you're not a member of the Judeo christian community, and, you know, that is something that's there that doesn't apply to you. Now, the one side is people will think, okay, but so what? I mean, there's nothing wrong with the Ten Commandments. Okay. And if you feel that way, that's great. But for that member of a public school, using that example. Right. This isn't just limited to schools.

>> Roberta: 11:52

Right.

>> Stella: 11:52

But using that as an example, how does that make that person feel? They don't feel as included as the, other members of their class. They may not be familiar with it. Some would say, well, that's a great opportunity to introduce them. But it's not your job in public schools to indoctrinate anyone. Religion is a choice, and if we believe that we've been given the freedom of choice by whatever deity you might believe in, then you have to allow people to have that choice. Then there's the inconvenient fact, whether it's in a school or in a public building, those are paid for by everybody's taxes, not just those that subscribe to that particular religious belief. And it's not fair to have that in place. And the other inconvenient fact, I'll point out for all of you that might be on one side of the fence or the other, is that's why we left England. Okay, so I'm just going to call that out. If we want to go back to the formation of this country, it is because there was no separation of church and state. State. The state in England being the monarchy at that time, and the Church of England is the monarchy. The monarch is the head of the Church of England. That's still true to this day. And so, while politics are different, now England has a parliament, and they do most of the work, while the monarchy just makes a lot of. Sits on their billions. at the end of the day, there is a reason why this exists. The separation of church and state. It's so that a religion is not making the laws for the country, so that everyone who believes in whatever they believe in are still abiding by the same set of laws without conflict. So you do that by removing any religion from it. So it's becoming more of a thing. And I'm not particularly comfortable with this. For that last piece. Right. For that last piece. you know, I think both of us still are women of faith. We don't talk about it a lot on this podcast because there's too much poop to talk about. But the way we view our faith is very individual to us. Right. So, again, our issue is not that we have an issue with the ten Commandments, but what we're trying to explain to the audience is when these things pass, even if they seem very sanguine and innocent on the surface, there are underpinnings there where someone is excluded. And if that someone happens to be a child of a tax paying citizen or a tax paying citizen themselves, then you've excluded a member of our country who's paying the same taxes as everybody else for just what you're comfortable with. And there's something fundamentally flawed in that.

>> Roberta: 14:44

Yeah. If I could, I would say, you know, I think about, middle eastern countries that have Shahira law, or they're based on a law that is aligned with religion. And all the people that live there, maybe not 100%, because, I don't know. I don't live there. Gotcha. But I would say that a majority, for sure, ascribe to that religion and are totally okay with that being part of their constitution or, you know, their record of how they exist and. And participate in that country. But in a country that is labeled free, like ours, like the United States of America. for the art. We have a lot of international listeners, so I wanted to call that out.

>> Stella: 15:41

That's a good call out.

>> Roberta: 15:44

But, when you're stating that you're free, free means free. So you have to go back to a standard of free. Now, I know a lot of really good people that ascribe to a religion and want to see more traditional religious values brought into schools, for example. And all I would say is, while I'm not adamantly opposed to that, it should be done with this disposition of not everyone has to believe the same way you do. The only things you should be paying particularly close attention to, besides what you said, which was exclusion, is are you infringing or crossing a boundary, with a different religion. So, very good content. Hopefully we did it justice.

>> Stella: 16:47

And again, we could go on for hours on this stuff. But, you're 100% correct. Let's talk about information access. Yeah, so, books, for example.

>> Roberta: 16:58

That's a big one. That's a big one.

>> Stella: 17:01

books, narratives. If somebody truly believes in their heart of hearts, for example, and I'm going to go to the extreme, m just so people see how ridiculous this is, let's just say that if somebody were to, say a particular city or even a state, I'm not going to name a state because I'm going to get hate mail. And while I really don't care about hate mail, in fact send it. I don't want to. Again, we're not trying to intentionally provoke anybody, but, let's just pick a fictitious state. And in your mind, let's say the majority of the people in that state were satanists. Not everybody, but the majority were worshiping Satan. Okay.

>> Roberta: 17:42

Yeah.

>> Stella: 17:43

Would we be okay with their tax money going to put in the satanic bible and making sure that that is present in every single classroom or that in their courts. You don't swear upon a bible. You swear upon the satanic bible. What if you're not a satanist? What if that goes deeply against your deeply held personal faith? How would that make you feel? And, while people sit there and go, well, that's ridiculous, but we do that to people all the time. Now, there may be a portion of people, again, very good people with the best intentions say, I don't care if I piss off a satanist. Okay, maybe you don't. But then do you care if you piss off a muslim? Do you care if you piss off a hindu? Do you care if you piss off an atheist? And if your answer to all of those is no. Then you are excluding people versus having a neutral platform for things that should be neutral. Government affairs should be neutral. Informational access should be neutral. If you truly believe, for example, that, I don't know, I'm going to pick something ridiculous that, Donald Duck and Daisy Duck were perhaps, maybe Daisy used to be Donald. Donald used to be daisy. And therefore, you refuse to have those books in a classroom, and you campaign against that. That's your opinion, and that's your belief. But not everybody subscribes to the same belief as you, or even within religions. As you pointed out with sharia law, Iran is a great example of where people still don't like it. Women are throwing off their Jesus saying, no, not me, not anymore. I'm going to dance and be okay with it because I'm m tired of the oppression. And so, it's to me, to your point, if we're a free country, we're a free country. But for those international listeners that aren't in those countries, I get it, I get it. But here we need to be conscious of the fact that if you feel slighted against. Yeah. It could be because of what you believe, and you don't subscribe to the same belief as someone else in your immediate area, whether that's at work or in your community, in your state. This is another way that it's done, is to limit access to information or the kind of information that you have access to.

>> Roberta: 20:03

Yeah. I'm gonna say something that, you know, I am not a certified professional on, but what I've seen in life since, I do love philosophy and I study life. What is that?

>> Stella: 20:21

Never said that before.

>> Roberta: 20:22

I know, I know. one thing I do know about the human condition is when you censor, there will be people that want to go against, because by the very act of saying you can't be exposed to this type of book or this type of article, people are going to want to revolt against it. So I'm not saying that's justification for throwing out, you know, pornography in third grade, okay? That I.

>> Stella: 21:00

Nobody, nobody wants that, by the way.

>> Roberta: 21:02

But, but what I am saying is, you know, it's a very dangerous and slippery slope on censoring information, and you should, in your religion, whatever religion you're in, if you're. So it's one thing to say I don't want to be exposed to that, or I don't want my children to be forced to learn about something else, that's one thing. But to make it a systemic thing and to, like you said we kept talking about public places. even companies. A company can be private, but at the same time, you're coming there to work, you're not coming there to be religious. Unless. Unless you're working for a church.

>> Stella: 21:57

Yeah. Then we know who your employer is. Exactly. No one is saying that. Well, I work for the diocese. That's an exemption. We understand. But everyone knows when they go there what you're there to do. So no one is surprised by it. No one is excluded by it. So, again, that's what you're right. It all comes down to, this is a personal thing. And if, to me, in general, in a free country, you want to be inclusive, you don't want to be divisive. And, if the majority rules, then part of the problem is that none of these are majority positions. They're just, you know, history is written by the loud and the forceful.

>> Roberta: 22:39

Yeah.

>> Stella: 22:40

And often those people are not the minority, which is why they have to be loud. Or the majority, rather, which is why they have to be loud and forceful.

>> Roberta: 22:48

Yeah.

>> Stella: 22:49

Oh, my gosh. What do you got next?

>> Roberta: 22:51

Number four. Yes. Company, holidays. Should you get a pto day if you don't celebrate Christmas, for example?

>> Stella: 23:01

I haven't.

>> Roberta: 23:02

Now we're getting diced.

>> Stella: 23:04

I have a different view on this. Here we go. Here we go.

>> Roberta: 23:07

Yeah.

>> Stella: 23:08

Yes. You could technically offer, if you were an employer, you could offer. Here's the holidays. If you don't celebrate Christmas but you'd like to take a day off for Hanukkah, you can do a tradesies, or if, you know, you don't celebrate any, you can have a floating pto day. That's very progressive. Unfortunately, also not very realistic, because some people close because they are tied to working with, you know, a government agency. And, like, for example, a bank has to close because the Federal reserve is closed. So you're not working on Christmas Day. So it's. It is interesting, but I recall a particular situation where a member of my team, said, I don't celebrate Christmas, so can I have another day off other than Christmas? And my response was, unfortunately, no. I mean, I respect your personal beliefs, but where would you. I mean, we're closed on Christmas. That's the company holiday list. We're closed on Christmas. So how do you work on Christmas? no one will be here with you, and it's just not a feasible solution. So, unfortunately, this is an area where sometimes it's. It is what it is, and it's unfortunate, but I do encourage companies where it's possible to be a little progressive in this regard. And look at. Look at your team. If you have a team that, you know, is mostly, you know, of christian faith, then, okay. Christmas seems pretty solid. Yeah, good Friday seems pretty solid. No one's going to complain about a day off, in any case, by the way, for any reason. So paid holidays are always good to go, in my opinion. But. But while we're on company stuff, let's talk about policies. Our fifth one on the list.

>> Roberta: 25:13

Okay.

>> Stella: 25:14

Private and public policy. So that could go everything from a dress code to expectations on private life, as well as public policies and laws. We've talked a lot about some of the things we're seeing in certain states. but if we think about, If we think about dress code, you may think your dress perfectly appropriate. It could be as simple as you're a woman in a pantsuit. And if you work somewhere where that is seen by either the company or your particular manager as inappropriate, because in their particular religion, women do not wear pants. And yes, by the way, folks, there are religions where that exists. Hello. Or that women should not be seen in public unless they are fully covered head to toe. That is an impact to those who don't believe the same way. Now, where it gets diocese, if it's a private company and that's their policy, then you have freedom of choice to abide by it or don't work there. That's just the reality. But companies need to think about how much of that they want to enforce, in my personal opinion, because not all of your customers necessarily do the same thing. Now, again, if your. If your job is. You have a christian reading room, you might be fine. Or if you're running a, you know, a, store that, you know, is selling, you know, muslim appropriate garb. Okay.

>> Roberta: 26:52

Yeah.

>> Stella: 26:53

Again, like a church, we get it. Like, no one is going to be, you know, feeling excluded, because that's your whole purpose of existence. But if you're like, running an e commerce thing and it just, you know, tech support in the back, and it seems that some people are being excluded because of what they believe, it doesn't. It doesn't work right. It just. You gotta. You gotta think about that. And public policy is entirely different like that. I'll go back. In general, I don't think any public policy should be based on religion, and I'll probably get some hate for that, but it's not, because I don't think religion is valid. But I do believe that one of our strengths as a country is our diversity. And I don't believe religion is something that is accepted, accepted by force. Ah. At, its purest religion is a personal relationship with what you believe and whatever deity you worship, if you worship one at all. And that is not for me to dictate, nor for me to direct public policy to dictate, just so that a section of the population feels more comfortable and feels that we're finally on the right path. It's not our place to do that. And that's where some of these policies, private company policies, school policies, catholic girls in catholic school.

>> Roberta: 28:21

I do have a quick little story, although it was like a long time ago when I was in the United States Navy. I went to Chebali and the policy that the navy had was that any woman had to be dressed from the neck down to her toes, and it was 120 degrees. So I was like, I seriously can't wear shorts like the hell. Yeah, but the men could. And so I was, at the time, I'm only like 1920. So I was just like really kind of appalled with that policy. but I understood what they had explained is that that would be offensive to that particular culture set of people or culture. But it was so crazy because when I went to their mall, they're very westernized in chibali, even at that time, there were several tourists in skirts and shorts and, like, they were just. But I'm like, okay, so we have to, as a country, because we're representing the United States of America, we have to show that we're honoring their culture. So I came to terms with it. But this is one example where, you know, my dress code was impacted by a policy. and so, yeah, I just want to.

>> Stella: 29:58

That's a great example, though. That's a great example. You're up.

>> Roberta: 30:02

Yep. Okay, so, number six, guilt and shame, or judgment, embarrassment, or even abuse. So, yeah, you know what? I was going to say something. I'm glad this was the topic. believe it or not, I have done a lot of religious studying. I even thought at one point I might shift from philosophy to theology. so just a little background on me. But one of the things that you, a lot of our listeners might find interesting is that when I really was studying the Bible, the Christian Bible, when judgment came up, if you really look at the context, it was judgment within the believers, not judgment for someone that wasn't a believer. So it was almost as if that judgment, quote unquote judgment, was not to condemn, but it was more to hold accountable. If you say that you believe in XYZ as a believer and you're part of the group, then the judgment came when someone was deviating from what they said they believe in. I think so many christians. I'm not trying to pick on christians over anybody else, but they have the wrong perception of judgment because they look at somebody that's not even in saying that they believe in what you believe in, and they're passing judgment and being loud and saying, oh, my God, you're so bad, or my.

>> Stella: 32:09

Like, the Westboro Baptist Church is an incredible example of that, right? protesting military funerals, holding up those horrible signs and all of those. That missile. You know, they. They want to malign a certain community, right? And they point to Leviticus and says it. Says it's an abomination. So, for those of you that are not familiar, because perhaps you're not of. You know, you're not Judeo Christian, because, Leviticus is Old Testament, and a lot of these are also jewish laws. Homosexuality is seen in the book of Leviticus and literally stated as an abomination. But so is divorce, so are tattoos. So the next time a person on, their second or third marriage tattooed head to toe, wants to talk about how someone else is wrong, judge not yes, or yet the be lest. Jeez, I can't talk lest the be judged. Hopefully that gets added. but, ah, that's exactly right where the guilt, the shame, and, oh, by the way, let's be a little less obvious. Somebody has some deeply held beliefs on how they feel people should behave, whether it's children, women, anything, and that ties to their religious beliefs. And therefore, you know, a young woman coming in late and what they are subjected to as a result of that other person's belief, that level of toxicity exists in society, in people's families. We all know that one relative at Thanksgiving who thinks all of you are going to hell, except theme we all know. Which my daughter would laugh at because she said, I don't believe in hell because she identifies as jewish, so she doesn't. So, I mean, I can't even say she does literally think that we're all going to hell, but her, because she doesn't believe. And if she's listening right now, it's okay. It's okay. You're free to believe what you like. let's go to the next one. economic inequality. This is really important, okay? Closely held views can validate behavior that impacts hiring decisions, raises, and social policy. Things like, you know, you might have heard that. Well, it's God's plan. Or the caste system in India, where it's just accepted in the culture that if you're born poor, it's because either you're starting out your spiritual journey and you're at the very bottom, or you screwed up major, in your last life and you're right back here to learn those lessons and try again. That's a religious belief, and people accept it. So using that as an example, and I'm not criticizing. Again, none of us are criticizing anything.

>> Roberta: 34:59

Yeah, right. We are.

>> Stella: 35:00

Except you, tattooed, divorced person pointing at somebody else. You need to read the book of Leviticus, and I don't want to hear, well, God doesn't mean that for us. Yes, he does. Anyway, so. Yes, he does. If you're going to say it's good for them, good for goose, good for Gander. But anyway, what I am saying, though, is that's a good example of how the religious view could hold someone down, because you're not supposed to be better than where you are now. And we've certainly seen people use references in the christian bible of treating your slaves well to justify slavery in this country, because that's what was literally used. So, in modern times, do we see something that extreme, other than the caste system, which I believe is still very much there in this country? Not as extreme, but do I believe that people make decisions because they believe that that's okay? Like, you're not supposed. Like a woman, for example. You're. I am so flabbergasted that some people don't understand that until the mid seventies, a woman could not have her own bank account in this country unless her husband signed off on it. What do you do if you're single? Like, have dad do it? Like, it doesn't even make sense. Right, but those are beliefs that, you know, women are supposed to take care of the home and raise kids and not bother herself with business and work and financial affairs. That's not. And some people truly believe that we need to go back to that. And what I'll say to you is shut it right now, because we're not gonna. But that's the economic inequality that can be driven by closely held beliefs. And again, the challenge here is not simply saying these things exist, but looking at your life and recognizing they could impact you personally in overt and covert ways. So this is about raising your awareness to the matter. Close us out, Stella.

>> Roberta: 36:58

Well, I had one. One quick last thing on that is that sometimes societies have beliefs based on culture. For example, don't talk back. Don't question authority, for example. And that happened a lot in the roman empire. And, you know, is it true that.

>> Stella: 37:20

Men always think about the Roman Empire? Have you seen those memes that,

>> Roberta: 37:24

No.

>> Stella: 37:25

There's apparently memes out there that if you ask any man in your life, how often do you think about the roman empire? That most of them will say, all the time, or a lot, which I find fascinating.

>> Roberta: 37:37

I've never.

>> Stella: 37:38

I'm descended from Romans, and I don't think about the roman empire. Like, not even on, not even quarterly. Like, I. People think about the Roman Empire, I'm like, why? It's over. Like, it's been over. But I'm fascinated by that.

>> Roberta: 38:00

I am not heard of that ask.

>> Stella: 38:03

So you know who to ask, and I want to know. Yeah, I want to know. You got to let me know.

>> Roberta: 38:07

I am going to ask. I doubt it.

>> Stella: 38:09

But if he says all the time, I want you to text me.

>> Roberta: 38:13

Absolutely will. Okay. If he says, what's the roman empire? I'll also text you.

>> Stella: 38:19

And something also seems plausible.

>> Roberta: 38:24

Anyway. okay, the 8th one is control. The use of religion to control you or others in your circle at school, work, and community. And we did have a whole episode on cultish mentality.

>> Stella: 38:39

Cult. I mean, thank you for bringing that up, because there are some. There are some that. I'll say it. I'll say it because it shouldn't exist. I'll say it because I, Sorry. And I know this is going almost against everything we're talking about, but it's only a religion because it was thought to be a religion for tax purposes. Scientology, folks, is nothing.

>> Roberta: 39:08

Oh. A religion you want to target on your.

>> Stella: 39:10

Whatever. Like, understand when we talk about control. And look, if you're a scientologist, Mazel tov, okay, I'm a. I guess I'm an oppressive person. Then stop listening. I'll try to survive. Yeah, but when we talk about control, when your children cannot speak to a divorced parent because that parent is no longer associated with the church, when who you choose to do business with, who you award contracts to, is whether or not they are part of your church or cult, in this case, because you're not a church, you're a cult. I said it. I'm not taking it back. I'm not taking it back. It's not.

>> Roberta: 39:57

It's, a cult, but it's true.

>> Stella: 39:59

When you have control is about all of that. It's about controlling not only their members, but who their members are interacting with, which then controls everything else. And if you happen to not even be aware and you're just working with somebody, like, you know, Tom Cruise is the unofficial, like, face of Scientology, you know?

>> Roberta: 40:20

Yeah, yeah.

>> Stella: 40:21

How do people work with him on sets? Unless you are a fellow scientologist, aren't you also an oppressive person because you're not part of the gang? Not everybody on every single one of those movies is part of the gang. They're not. So how does that work for people? And if someone is like, let's say you're qualified in whatever area, I don't care sound. and you are in the union card carry member, been doing this for a long time, and you now have to work with someone getting paid the same amount as you that has been brought on because they happen to know Mister Tom from quote unquote church.

>> Roberta: 41:08

Yeah.

>> Stella: 41:09

How does that reward you as a person? How does that make you feel? And then if you have to take your time out and what are you going to do? Complain? So, I mean, it's an extreme example. And again, it's Hollywood. I don't know what I'm talking about on what needs to be done for a sound or whether those guys are in a union or not. I don't know. It's an extreme example. Give me some grace.

>> Roberta: 41:28

Yeah.

>> Stella: 41:28

Because I know it wouldn't happen in automotive. Right. I know it's not going to happen in banking, but, these are the kinds of control that we're talking about. It can impact you, and you may not be aware of why you're being controlled, that it seems like, well, it's policy or it's our tradition. No, it's somebody's deeply held religious beliefs that form that tradition, and you aren't part of that, so it's impacting you in one way or another.

>> Roberta: 41:55

Right, right. So true. and I was just going to point out, like, there's some religions that you give them your bank account information and they take ten, like, takes all of it. So, yeah, that's crazy. But, there is so much to this topic in general. I know we just highlighted the, eight, but we could go on hours and hours and hours, but we don't have hours.

>> Stella: 42:25

And all good things must come to an end. So if you have been impacted by toxic religious behaviors in unexpected ways, let us know. If you notice, we have not talked about some of the things that are very newsworthy. we're not discussing sexual abuse, we're not talking about molestation, we're not talking about things that we all know happen within certain religions. Technically, all of them, just some are more known than others, and heinous. We're not discussing any of that because those victims know damn well they've been impacted by it. So that was not the point of this. The point of this was to look at ways that people that are not associated are being victimized unknowingly by a religious belief that they may not even be aware somebody has. but if you've had that happen to you in unexpected ways, let us know. We can always do a follow up episode. If you're listening to this and you're particularly supportive or even angry at us and you'd like to come in and give a counter viewpoint, we're happy to have you as a guest. Absolutely. because we don't do that. We don't use our own personal religious beliefs to exclude any of you. This is an equal opportunity podcast.

>> Roberta: 43:37

I hope nobody thinks we're going to, you know, he double hockey sticks. But you can pray for us if you think that we are.

>> Stella: 43:48

And by the way, while you're praying, there's so much more to pray for in the world than us right now. Just.

>> Roberta: 43:55

Yes, there is.

>> Stella: 43:56

follow us on our social platforms, subscribe, check out our blog, buy yourself something nice from our affiliates, and spread the word.

>> Roberta: 44:04

Yes. And before we go, I want to add that we are not two humans. We each have our respective belief systems that are dear to us. We respect those who do and those who don't.

>> Stella: 44:19

We're not Satanists. We'll start there. But, we don't have. But if that's you, that's you. Like, we're not placing judgment on anybody's beliefs. We are placing judgment on treating others with toxicity. Whether it is for your religious beliefs or just because you feel like it or because you're using your religious beliefs to justify what you do to other people, we're judging the hell out of that. Like, that's not cool. Don't do that. But if you believe in something, we're not judging what you believe in. Again, it's you. It's your personal thing. We're not judging you.

>> Roberta: 44:53

Yes, absolutely. We don't believe in bossles, for example.

>> Stella: 45:00

Y'all need church. Bye.